Reparations Daily (ish) Vol. 23
Shifting Power and Narratives around Reparations. A conversation w/ Dr. Andre Perry
Happy Saturday! I felt terrible most of the day yesterday and unfortunately could not put out this edition of Reparations Daily (ish). We’ll be back on our regularly scheduled timeline next week, but for today, I hope you enjoy this Saturday edition.
Today’s Hot Take section features an interview with the unmistakable Dr. Andre Perry, a Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institute, scholar-in-residence at my alma mater American University, and author of ‘Know your Price: Valuing Black Lives and Property in America’s Black Cities.”
He has commented and been interviewed on the topic of reparations frequently. I urge you to read/watch this Axios piece where Dr. Perry predicts reparations for Black Americans will happen in the next decade. This piece he published with his colleague Dr. Rashawn Ray on why we need reparations for Black Americans is one that I refer back to often. If you’re more interested in listening than reading, they also did a podcast episode on it last year.
Dr. Perry was kind enough to take time out of his busy schedule to talk to me about how we must shift the dominant narratives that currently surround the reparations debate. A few takeaways from our conversation:
The man is unbelievably nice. Before we started the interview, he gave me some feedback and ideas on some of the research I am working on, which was incredibly helpful. Throughout the interview, I could hear both his passion and empathetic nature come through. I know he inspires the next generation of researchers and thinkers, and I hope that institutions like Brookings keep hiring Black scholars like him.
I was of the thought that reparations must come from the federal level and that most things at the local level would only detract from the fight at the federal level. However, Dr. Perry makes a compelling argument as to why these local fights are important and will eventually bring the issue of reparations to Capitol Hill.
We must disrupt the narrative at the core of the American identity and usher forth a new narrative of the American Dream.
Some news since the last edition that I found particularly interesting include:
This piece in LAist that reports on efforts by Japanese-American’s to mobilize a multi-racial reparations campaign. I’d love to interview someone from the organization leading this effort, the Nikkei for Civil Rights & Redress. If anyone reading has a connection to them, please let me know (tsmith@reparationslab.org)
This piece in Vox highlights a new bill that was recently passed in Illinois, which made it the first state in the country to require Asian American history in public school curriculums. I think this is a huge win in the current fight we’re seeing against the accurate teaching of our nation’s history in the U.S. and will have implications for slavery/reparations-related curricula as well.
This great opinion piece in the New York Times detailing the United States’ history with Haiti.
I urge you to keep an eye on the story developing in Detroit where the city council just passed a resolution that will put the following question on the November ballot; "Should the City of Detroit establish a Reparations Committee to make recommendations for housing and economic development programs that address historical discrimination against the Black community in Detroit?"
Finally, Vox +Netflix Explained released a new episode that details how much (trillions) Britain owes in reparations to various countries, and how the royal family has transformed itself over the centuries in order to maintain their power. I’ll be watching the full episode this weekend and doing a Hot Take on it next week.
With radical love,
Trevor
National News
LAist: 'We Have To Speak Up': Japanese American Activists Call For Reparations For Black Americans
Vox: Why a new law requiring Asian American history in schools is so significant
Washington Post: Reparations bill gains momentum as an interfaith cause
The Hill: Majority of Americans want history of racism, slavery taught in schools
BBC: Critical race theory: the concept dividing the US
The Hill: Defense chief says he won't get 'distracted' by critical race theory debate
The Federalist: No, The Biden Administration Is Not Backing Down On Critical Race Theory In Schools
NBC: NAACP stands by leader slammed over comments at critical race theory rally
Washington Post: Teaching critical race theory isn’t ‘indoctrination.’ Glorifying Stalin is.
BBC: BBC Interviews Taifa & local white farmer on reparations
Regional News
NPR: A Survivor Reacts To California's Reparations Program For Forced Sterilizations
Detroit Metro Times: Detroit City Council approves reparations measure, but challenges lie ahead
DCist: In D.C., A New Tax Measure Could Help Eradicate Poverty — If Residents Take Advantage Of It
KTUL: Oklahoma House denies interim study on reparations for Tulsa Race Massacre
News 12: Rally held at African Burial Ground National Monument to call on NYS senate to pass reparations bill
LAist: A $1M Fund Will Help South LA Residents Recover From Botched LAPD Fireworks Detonation
San-Antonio Express-News: 'Let the facts lead the way': Readers react to S.A. committee examining role of slavery in the Alamo.
CNN: Texas Senate advances bill to restrict how race, nation's history is taught in schools
Argus Leader: Lawmakers draft letter asking SD college officials to hold off on Critical Race Theory grants
ABC 13: Critical race theory in Central Virginia schools
Insider Higher Ed: Proposed Ban on Critical Race Theory Criticized at U of Nebraska
International News
Netflix Explained: Royalty
New York Times: We Owe Haiti a Debt We Can’t Repay
Washington Post: Europe has a long way to go on reparations and making amends for colonialism
New York Times: Spain Pledged Citizenship to Sephardic Jews. Now They Feel Betrayed.
National Post: Trudeau to appear in film about slavery with senator who criticized him over blackface
Hot Takes
The following conversation has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
Trevor: You say reparations can happen in the next 10 years; what will it take for us to get there, and what role do you think the media has to play for that to happen? If any?
Dr. Perry: I think it's already happening; there is debate, as you know, whether these local forms of reparations are forms of reparations. I would say they are because many of the activists are fighting for, but they are not comprehensive. So programs are already occurring, and reparations won't come from D.C.; they will go D.C., what we are seeing is a reparative culture being created.
The more the media can highlight, "hey, when our neighbors are sick, just like in this pandemic, everyone is vulnerable.” The best way to cure this virus is to vaccinate everyone from the evils of racism, if you will. The way you do that is by providing stimulus or reparations to the people who have been injured through policy.
When the business community, after a few weeks of social distancing, were screaming at the top of their lungs "make me whole," to them I say, what does it mean to make a people whole who have been socially distanced for generations, but when it comes to Black people, it becomes controversial for some reason.
For me, the media has to show that there are efforts to recognize racism, provide damages for injury, and show that it is a good thing overall, not only from a moral perspective but also from an economic question.
We put too much weight on the economics of reparations and not the moral obligation of reparations which is part of the problem; when we talk about macroeconomics, we forget that there are macro-ethics that should be infused in our policymaking. We have abandoned any moral or ethical stance of treating Black people and descendants of slaves with any level of respect. The more we can highlight the inequity in media, the better to show that we need a creative culture.
Trevor: From your perspective, should we be trying to own our own media and tell our own stories, sort of what Marc Lamont Hill is doing with Black News Channel, or should we try to get more Don Lemons on CNN?
Dr. Perry: I think there is room for both, and I don't think we need to have that debate. There are enough people to be more black-owned media companies and Black people working at firms owned by someone else. So in the absence of racism, we would see more Black-owned media companies and Black executives within mainstream media; we have to see both.
One of the reasons why media companies have gotten away with producing stereotypes is they themselves believed in myth instead of facts.
In my research, I would often review some of these old movies, newspaper articles, and other cultural products, and they are just in error. They are based on myths and stereotypes, and there is a lack of rigor in media companies historically. We see it more clearly because Fox News is so obvious about it, but so was CBS and ABC. The entire market was without rigor or moral rectitude, and it reinforced the system we see today.
Yes, we need more ownership, and we need more Black people in mainstream firms, and in those mainstream firms, we need more truth and facts presented.
Trevor: There has been some public disagreement between experts and academics on what exactly reparation is. You wrote a piece in The Washington Post about Evanston, IL, and why it should be considered reparations. Many people are becoming aware of what they are doing in Evanston, considering it was just detailed in The Daily. How important do you think it is to become clear about what exactly reparations are? Can you re-explain to folks who may not have read the Washington Post article why this specific effort be considered reparations?
Dr. Perry: We have to remember that the general definition of reparations is to redress injury caused by policy and policy actors, and for me, without question, the injury was caused at the federal, state, and local levels, as well as among various institutions such as churches, universities, and corporations. So everyone has a moral obligation to address these things.
We need a comprehensive and exact definition when it comes to different aspects of reparations.
When you are talking about slavery, we should have an exact definition. When you are talking about housing or redlining, we should have an exact definition. Collectively these will be different definitions, and we should be open to that.
There is a fear that if there is patchwork or efforts from the state or local level, it will dilute the power of the Congressional act that we all want, particularly around slavery.
I don't think we should have that fear. I really believe reparations will come to Washington. What I mean by that is that it will bubble up and essentially back federal actors into reparations. I don’t think we can only pressure them around federal legislation. Like a lot of policies, it will come from local initiatives.
One of the things I said around the culture of reparations is that we explain how redlining didn't come from the federal government. Instead, it came from a local mayor in Baltimore, who deemed Black areas too hazardous, and that became municipal policy and, eventually, federal policy.
I am positive that that local action didn’t look like it did when it reached the federal level, just like these efforts on the ground won’t look like what eventually comes at the federal level.
There are efforts on the ground that reflect a reparative culture that is developing, and we should embrace that because that is the type of pressure we need in cities across the country that will change the national landscape. Once this happens, Congress has to respond because they won’t ignore as the President or a US Senator what is going on in cities across the country.
Trevor: Could some of these local efforts essentially water down the definition of reparations?
The more people get local and state governments and universities s to own up to what they did, the better.
We still need to say, "Hey, look, not everything is reparations." We have to be clear about that, I worry, that if we are too proprietary with the term, we will disavow the need for local reparations programs that Black people in these areas are really driving. So, I don't ever want to say these local efforts are not legit because when you look at these actions from city governments, particularly in housing, state, local, and federal actors colluded to deliver anti-Black policy, and all of these actors need to pay up.
It’s not going to be clean, but we got to demand and get people to acknowledge that injury was caused at multiple levels. When I looked at Evanston from a big picture perspective, I realized it wasn’t a bad thing from a big picture, and in of the reports, I showed that support for reparations has doubled in just the last 20 years. So you are seeing more and more people, even conservatives, say it’s time for reparations. Conservatives who have any moral compass understand that reparations are needed, and I think that the culture is changing, and we have to embrace it. That is why I said 10 years because a lot can happen in 10 years, and many people are demanding their fair share.
I published a report saying that you have to invest in Black businesses if you want to improve the economy. Black people represent 14 percent of the population but only 2 percent of employer firms. If the percentage of employer firms equaled the Black population, we would have 800,000 more businesses in the U.S., more productivity, more pay, greater overall employment, and in that regard, equity is a stimulus. Unfortunately, we don’t have more Black employer firms because Black people have been denied the ability to accumulate wealth. If we want to build an equitable economy, we have to address the harm that caused this. It not only addresses the moral lapse but also improves the entire economy.
That is the narrative people don’t understand. People think that if you help a Black person, it harms a white person. This is why we need the media to show that no one is harmed by helping Black people, this is not a program that takes from white people, and part of the reason a narrative and culture shift is so important.
Trevor: What does narrative change mean to you? How does it play a role in the reparations fight?
Dr. Perry: I think narrative change occurs when it conjures your initial assumptions about a typical topic. When people think about the American dream, they think about owning a home or business. Some assumptions automatically appear in a narrative. There has been a negative narrative that we are deficient when it comes to Black people, that there is a lack of personal responsibility. When something goes wrong in Black neighborhoods, we blame the Black people in those neighborhoods. Through this false narrative, we then ignore the generations of anti-Black policy in which we lived.
Narrative change is changing the initial assumptions about people. For example, many people think I am interested in the economy, which I am interested in wealth, but I’m more interested in power and narrative. Wealth accumulation becomes easier when people are empowered.
A lot of my work is to shift the narrative, so I say there is nothing wrong with Black people that solving racism can’t fix. So often, when researchers produce reports, they show racial disparities, and the problem with racial disparities is that it conveys that Black people need to catch up with white people, when in fact, we need to focus on the racism that caused it.
The research I do shows that Black people have strong assets, but anti-Black policy is constantly extracting wealth from those assets, and we have to focus on the policy, not the people.
At the core of the American narrative is this idea of rugged individualism or bootstrapping. It shrouds the policies that have empowered some people and burdened others, so I am constantly trying to shift narratives using the rhetorical power of numbers.
This is also about facts, though.
Some of the attacks on critical race theory, or toward Black scholars, or the 1619 project, are ignorant. It’s revealing how ignorant white supremacy makes people.
Clearly, there is an achievement gap we don't talk about, and it’s an achievement gap where white people's cultural sensibilities around history are skewing their credibility in all kinds of areas. There are still people who try and remix the Monhiyan report over and over. Politicians from Trump to Ben Carson say slavery wasn’t the problem or that America was good when Black people were enslaved (I’m paraphrasing), but that is profoundly ignorant. It seems from white supremacy, and sometimes it’s hard to get into any conversation because their arguments are not based on facts.
So when we are talking about reparations, they are in a racist la la land that is hard for them to absorb facts. To deny these things happened is to bury your head in the sand to not only the racist things of the past but also the present.